The Workplace of now - diversity from the top down.

Eric Niewiarowski 

From hrgrapevine.com. It's the HR Grapevine Podcast. Hi, everyone. Eric Niewiarowski, host of the podcast. Thank you for joining me. And this week's episode is the sixth and final installment of our Workplace of Now, which is a special series we've been producing, along with our partners at Zellis.  

Now, for those of you who don't know, Zellis are the UK and Ireland's leading provider of payroll and HR Solutions. They have over 50 years of heritage and industry experience and have been ahead of the curve throughout. So, this final episode of the Workplace of Now, I want to talk about diversity, specifically diversity from the top down. Now what does this mean? Well, essentially, it is my opinion, and many others, that for any sort of change to a truly more inclusive workplace, this sort of drive really only gets going when a company's own leadership kind of take stock of how diverse they are. 

So to help me unpack diversity from the top down and what it all means, I'm thrilled to be joined by Melanie Hill. She is the Chief Marketing Officer at Zellis. So Melanie and I are going to discuss a lot of things, but mainly we're going to talk about if HR should take a look at its own house when it comes to diversity, we want to talk about how the meaning of inclusion’ has changed within the hybrid workplace. And then we're going to talk about the different data points we need to make well-informed decisions around the DE and I area. You know, I really want to thank Melanie for taking the time to lend her insights and opinions on diversity within leadership. Neither one of us are DNI policy makers. Neither of us work in HR., but we're both advocates on the subject and it was great to get Melanie's perspective as a mixed race, a person in a leadership position, and truly how important a drive to inclusion is and acknowledging that it takes a long time to achieve those goals. So a really insightful conversation and I hope you enjoy it. 

 

Melanie Hill 

So my name is Melanie Hill. I am the Chief Marketing Officer for Zellis, and have been for the last two years. Zellis is the UK and Ireland leader in HR and payroll software. 

 

Eric 

So I just want to kick it off. 

With a lot of pressure mounting to deliver on D,E and I goals. Should HR take a look at its own house first? 

 

Melanie 

It's a big question, so I think, before I go into the answer, I think what's really important is to sort of set a bit of context. So for me, it's really important to understand the positive impacts that getting your D, E and I right will make on a company. So and actually, I think it goes as far as impact bottom line.  I think there are some - and I'll talk about a couple of examples that I'm really passionate about as well, but - I think there are some studies that show if you get your diversity right and your inclusive environment, inclusive work, you actually increase your profits by up to 33%. And by getting your gender diversity right, you can increase your profits by about 21%.  

What I want to point out is it's not just a fad. It's not something that is of the moment, although it is of the moment. But I think it's something, you know, certainly since George Floyd. People have got to start thinking about this and they've got to start thinking about how they're going to make a change at their organizations. 

You know, if you have diversity of thought and I'm really passionate about this and I hope people at my team will hopefully testify to this. So I'm really passionate. If you get diversity, background, diversity of thought, you will end up getting to a better decision. And I really think, you know, challenging people's decisions and working them through with different backgrounds and diverse thoughts, is by far the best way to go. 

So, my background is actually in finance. I used to work within large tier=one banks, and one particular tier-one bank had embarked upon a ten-year ‘cultural change’ program. And for me, this really has stuck with me and has really made me sort of passionate about the whole D, E and I space. So a really big tier–one bank - I won't name the bank - but they are driven from the top because the CEO is completely passionate and about the fact that he needed to have a diverse and inclusive organization and they begun on their journey probably about 15 years ago, actually, which is really progressive for the time. 

It took them ten years really to make an impact on how inclusive and how diverse their organization was. It moved away from being the kind of, you know, white, middle class, male decision making, to a really inclusive, creative environment where people were invited to have their opinions heard, make mistakes, make mistakes quickly and move on. And you didn't need to be kind of always right. 

Like, you know, that old fashioned perspective of the leader has to always know the right answer. Actually, you know, no one person knows all the right answers, but a group of people can absolutely help you to get to the right answer. And they absolutely saw a positive impact on their bottom line. So that story really stuck with me because it took such a long time, 15 years, really, for them to make a change, and they're not alone. So I think I think for me, you know, it's you know, there's no sort of big regulation for getting this right. There's no kind of you know, there is pressure, certainly, you know, a little regulation of the government, a little sort of government pressure to kind of get this right. So it's absolutely the right thing to do, it can impact your bottom line, and you have to be honest. And that to me is the important bit. You have to be honest and transparent and no one's going to be 100% perfect. So looking at your own house and getting that in order are two different things. You have to look at your own house. You have to be transparent and honest about where you are - because as I said in that example, you know, it can take 10 to 15 years to really make a difference - So you have to be honest about where you are today and you have to use data to reveal where you are today.It has to be data decisions and honest about where you want to get to and to be transparent about the fact that that's going to take you time, you're not always going to get it right is absolutely, I think, the bare minimum of what companies need to aspire to. 

So I think it's about the journey. Right. So you look at your house. No houses are going to be perfectly in order. So you have to be transparent and honest about where you are today. And that can evolve year on year. But you have to basically be honest, transparent, driven from the top. The only way you make that change is driven from the top, but it's about the journey for me.  I don't have a problem with company saying ‘this is where we are today. We have a diverse workforce. We don't have enough women. We don't have enough, you know, protected characteristics represented in our organization. But we're aware of it and it's important to us and we're passionate about it and we recognize it's the right thing to do.” 

So for me, it's that message that is the most important one. 

 

Eric 

It definitely seems like it’s a marathon more than a sprint. Right? And am I safe in assuming that? 

 

Melanie 

I think it has to be viewed that way. We, you know, in Zellis when we - and I am I am no expert. I have no idea. I'm not an expert at all, no expert in this space - But, you know, when we started our journey, as we talked to a number of our customers that were well progressed in their journey, and some of the statistics were kind of quite worrying. And I'm going to grab some numbers from memory. So they may not be completely accurate, but some of our customers, very long-established organizations, you know, took something like ten years to get close to 60 to 80% of people to declare their data on their gender and their ethnicity. And they hadn't even really started to look at other protected characteristics that were less visible. 

You know, mental disabilities, you know, so sexuality for example. So, the point is, that it takes a long time to really gather that intel and even to get the data to set your policies against and to set your KPIs and goals against can take a long time. It's not even a marathon. It's like a slow walk. You know, you're not going to run. You can't run this marathon. You've got to have visibility of where you are and openness and visibility of where you want to get to. And when I say openness, I mean, you know, in one year, you may change year-on-year about where you want to get to because you learn more and you get more data points and you talk to more people and you get more perspectives. And actually, you will move the needle year on year about what you want to collect. So for me, it's the slow, plodding journey, the transparent visibility of where you are, where you want to get to, and flexing that year-on-year, I think is absolutely fine. I am, yeah, there's so many things that are important and that ultimately you want to drive to an inclusive and inclusive organization. That's, that's, that's the ultimate goal. 

 

Eric 

Yeah. So, so I live up here in Scotland, right? I'm going to veer off for a second, but. But it will make sense, I promise. So after my first year of living here, I decided I'm going to go and ‘bag a Munroe.’ Right. That's like a mountain, but not quite a mountain. It's called a 'Munroe’ and there's a bunch of them here. 

So the first one was Ben Lomond, and I remember it was a rainy day and I didn't bring the right kit and I’m soaked and I clear a ridge. And as I'm walking up to this ridge, I go, “That's it, I've done it. I bagged the Monroe.” 

And then I got to the ridge, looked left and I was maybe, maybe three quarters of the way up. 

And so when I think about this diversity issue and, you know, making a diverse and inclusive workforce, I like you're slow walk for a marathon. I like my mountain analogy where you think you're there. And I wonder if those goal posts, then, are constantly moving? 

 

Melanie 

So, I'll tell you why I don't like the mountain analogy because the mountain analogy makes it seem hard. Right. And what I don't want people to feel is this is like a massive mountain that we need to climb within the next five years. Actually, you know, taking a slow stroll to the beach on a downward incline is as good. I really don't want people to think it's hard.  And that's one thing, you know, I think it's the even slow pace in the right direction is really the way to view it.  

 

Eric 

So I will cancel the mountain analogy and we'll slow decline into a beach because that actually sounds much more lovely. What you were mentioning about how this tier one leader was, you know, wanting to change the entire scope of the company culturally. And one of that is within leadership. And I think one thing that we've learned in the last - I think we're going to three years now in pandemic and into this post-pandemic - is that I feel that the most successful leaders and by extension, most successful businesses, they've succeeded because those leaders have shown that vulnerability. 

And it all kind of wraps into this one thing with now we're not in the office, right? You and I are both from our respective home working environments right now. So the hybrid workplace is not going away. You'll have a lot of other, especially in the finance sectors, you know, your Goldman Sachs CEOs, your Lord Alan Sugar saying ‘Get back into the office’ 

But we're not and we have to be at peace with that. And with this in mind, how has the concept of inclusion changed within this new hybrid workplace that we live in? 

 

Melanie 

So I mean, obviously, hybrid working has broadened the diversity of workforces. Obviously that's that goes without saying the talent pool is broader. You can hire more people from different areas. You know, things like physical disabilities now don't become an issue at all. So I think it's definitely increased the diversity and we're all experiencing the world talent. 

Right. Everyone is acutely aware of it being an employee's market right now, you know, I think COVID hybrid working has kind of leveled off the playing field, certainly. And I think, you know, you can get a more talented work pool.  I actually was reading about it this morning, but there's the future forum, which and they talked to 10,000 employees across globally in major countries globally. So UK, US, Germany, Australia, Japan, I think. And that study obviously post-COVID, the flexible working, hybrid working showed that black or black or brown employees were actually finding it easier and less stressful to work from home. Okay. So if you kind of like just thinking about that and kind of unpacking that a bit, I mean, that's great, right? 

So they're at home, they're working from home and they're less stressed. So that is absolutely great. And that is obviously going to play into your DEI story. So I think, yes, it's leveled off the playing field, but I think there's a there's another angle if you look at the facts. And actually, it's not surprising that you look at women, you know, people of specific ethnic backgrounds, you know, they experience sort of micro aggressions on a daily basis. Of course they do. So it's not surprising that they probably find it more, you know, women walking down the street. I experience it all the time. It's not surprising that could find it more stressful to come into the working environment. I suppose my worry is that the extended kind of hybrid working will not address those issues. 

And actually if people are stressed because of their ethnicity coming into work and of course it's not just the UK, this is a broader study. So there will be other cultural sensitivity that play into that. We need to start thinking about why they are and start trying to address those. And to have a truly inclusive environment would mean that those stresses were eliminated when you're in the office, not just when you're working from home. So my worry about that is that I don't know the answers, but the extended period of kind of hybrid working and working from home may mask addressing those issues. So, yeah, you know, and that is a concern. But, you know, I don't think there's any reason for us to change the hybrid working. I think actually it's demanded. You know, the diverse workforce, the war on talent you absolutely have to provide a kind of almost hybrid and flexible working. But I do worry about the long-term impact of exclusively working from home and not coming to the office and the things that that may mask and the fact that companies may not even be aware of them to start addressing those issues. 

 

Eric 

Okay. Let's wrap it up. I want to talk about data or data. I know you're a big data fan. I'm not a numbers game visual guy, but I'm really wanting to hear your insights on this. You mentioned it before. You need data points to drive these decisions and drive the changes. Right. So what data do we need to make these well informed decisions regarding D, E and I? 

 

00:16:23:01 - 00:16:51:01 

Melanie 

Yeah, such a big question. But the reason data is important me is again that you can't move the needle unless you have your data points. If you don't know where you're starting from, you can't set policies, you don't know what the problems are and you can't set policies to make those changes and you can't even recognize that you're moving the needle. 

So we did a big study with The Economist on  D,E and I data declaration. And we’ve begun we're quite well progressing, Zellis on our journey for our own data declaration. Our products can actually help you do that. So obviously we do HR solutions that you can actually collect your data through our solutions. So for us, what we discovered with this survey and we will do this on an annual basis, we interviewed frontline workers and middle management, but what we discovered was that from a broad perspective, you have to have the trust of your employees if you're going to ask them for their data, especially protected characteristics, because what the survey showed was that if you don't have the trust, you won't get the data and then you can't actually set the policies and move the needle. But employees, frontline workers, their managers weren't trusting that organizations were going to use the data in the right way. They weren't trusting that they were actually going to use the data to set the policies and actually make a change. And then if you look at the people with protected characteristics, there was even less trust, right? So you kind of almost get in this vicious cycle of people on the employees aren't trusting what they're going to do with the data and therefore won’t give the data and therefore you can't get a baseline to make the improvements, It's all about building - you know, the data. Is this almost a secondary point - The first point is you've got to build the trust of the employees. And they've got to really believe that you are going to do the right thing with the data, and that can only come from the top. It goes back to that point that your leadership team have got to be passionate and driven and people have got to believe that they want to make a change. And if you don't have that almost people feel like it's a tick box exercise. So they're not interested in being part of it because it's like, ‘I don't believe you're going to do the right thing with that data.’ 

And then I think one of the other interesting things that the survey showed is actually that companies are asking some of the questions, but maybe they're asking the wrong question. So they're kind of almost a little bit antiquated in  the questions they're asking. Say, for instance, they may ask questions about gender, whether you're married, whether you have children, but those questions in isolation are not representative of today's society. And so they may be asking the questions, but sometimes the employees, especially ones with protected characteristics, felt that they may be asking the wrong question. So therefore, you just like, what is this? This is not going to help anything. So  one of the things I wanted to point out, and I'm probably rattling on too long, but I think for us when we did it, we did, you know, constructed our data declaration, and when we constructed the survey questions with the economy data declaration, it was really important that we made sure we had cultural sensitivities recognized in there as well. So, for example, in Ireland, we recognised you had to be sensitive to asking questions about religion.  In India you have to be very sensitive or probably not ask questions about sexuality because actually they could lead to violence, aggression and maybe even worse. So that means you've got to be very, very careful. So you have to have cultural and I don't know all of them, but there are cultural sensitivities that definitely need to overlay into those questions that you're asking in the data points that you're going to collect. And then I think the other piece is you just got to be honest, again, it's all about honesty and transparency.  

You got to talk to people. So you've got to ask people within your organization "what are the right  data points are to collect.’’ It may vary from one organisation to another. But I think the most important thing is to talk to your people because they're the ones that you are actually going to try and get their viewpoints and therefore you need to make sure they're comfortable, and you're asking the right questions and no one person or one department can know all of that. 

But I think it's all about just getting a broad perspective, pulling in all those data points, being honest that you might not get it right from the get-go and learning. And it's the journey down to that idyllic beach. That will, will educate you further. 

 

Eric 

Once again, big thanks to Melanie Hill, Chief Marketing Officer at Zellis for taking the time to chat with me today. I really appreciate her insights and expertise in helping me unpack what diversity from the top down really  looks like. I really appreciate Mel's analogy of that slow walk down to the beach, and honestly, it's much better than my analogy of mountain climbing. 

But that's the point. It shouldn't be hard. There is that journey to a very inclusive work environment. I think it's just key, as Melanie said, that business stakeholders need to know that it's going to take a long time. So, again, big thanks to Melanie in a big thanks to all of you for listening. And that is the conclusion of our Workplace of Now series. 

Again, a huge thanks to our partners at Zellis for taking part in this podcast. I've covered a lot in these six episodes with Zellis and their thought leaders, everything from failing that younger generation of workers to diversity to defining a healthy workplace and all parts in between, we've really kind of broken down what the ‘workplace of now’ looks like and what it could potentially be. 

So again, huge thanks to Zellis and a huge thank you to all of you for listening. And we'll be back with another edition of the HR Grapevine podcast next week.